In regards to Opening SB Source Code

[Erusman]

From a development prospective we need to set our fears aside (Legend like servers being generated splitting up what is left of the NGE community) If we are to achieve future results.
These fears are the same old ones that have set back NGE development for way to long. As I stated the potential for anyone to create a clone like NGE server of Legends etc. is already there.
People are not aware there has been substantial development in the src beyond SWGmasters repo from years ago. Or from what SB has done here.  All you would need to do is go to SWGSource.com or etc.  We have achieved similar stability, with heroics, crafting, space, quests, etc. all working. In Linux as well as win32.  However, you know what;  Do you see NGE servers popping up all over?  No?  then why?  One fact is that the src maybe not as easy for some to get running. However, the real reason a lot don't care to run public NGE servers on the same scale as Legends or SB.  Some actually don't want to even play publically at all.  Some prefer their own private server (like me).  But most just want to log on to the game and play.  How many of us do you think are left that want to play SWG NGE?  2K?  1K? 500?   Heck most don't even want to touch NGE at all and prefer precu SWGemu.  Those of precu stilck with SWGemu. Why?  They felt NGE destroyed SWG and its NGE the way SOE had it. Those that play are us old timers who loved the game and never gave it up when SWG shutdown.  But in order for this game to go on and not die out we must restore and create new content.  Content to attract new players and go beyond what SOE did with the NGE code.

The development community working on NGE is fragmented.  We need to combine together and share what we all have learned.  We NEED to go open source.  This is the only way we are going to achieve FASTER and GREATER development results.  More planets, content etc.   Heck I know things about win32 src that I am sure SB is not aware of.  Development tools etc.   I think if we can get one huge Open source project started again.  With Superior Quality Control.  We can achieve similar results at the end of NGE live..... and go Beyond what even SOE would have done.  We can take this game in a different direction then they even imagined.  Plus create new enjoyable content that may draw the interest of those that have never even experienced the game before.
A lot of those working with the leaked code have become disinterested and left.  All that progress gone.  Up to a few months ago I was about ready to do the same thing.  Pack up and turn all the progress I made with win32 etc. up and forget it.  I think we need to go open source as soon as we can.  Team up and share. 

Prove to the community the work you done on the src is stable with a LIVE server.  Run it stable for month or so.  Then lets get going on this while there are those of us still left wanting to share.  All of us working together is where we will see the progress happen.  I know this was once tried with the SWGmasters repo.  But, I feel if we have better quality control then we once had, and a terrific place like the SWGSource forums where we can get together and share information we can make SWG NGE better then ever before.

[Andarai]

You can contribute to the code without having full access to the code. The biggest threat to NGE servers is the population splintering.

What population splintering if there is already a working server of NGE around? You guys think SB is the only working server?  We only want to see if there is really a huge gap betwen what have done on the NGE server vs this SB code. And if really yes then use to update the server and also contribute here if devs are interested on some new content or added features. But well, dont worry we will see in few days when they open the servers.

Another thing is, why i should help all the comunity if the comunity itself remains egoist like what i see in the past with other groups? Im not talking about devs because they said what they want to do about the code, but the comunity? Why i should help to get the server with the last update of SWG ( working partially on the other non SB server and still under dev ) or the new content we are adding like new planets, new bosses...planned new heroics.... if the comunity itself here are plenty of ppl that only want benefit for him? Its funny read here, the ppl think this is the only place you can play a working server...and the world is really big. SB did a really great job and all the SWG ppl support him for what they did, do and for what type of ppl they are. But comunity... comunity only see for his only benefit nothing more. And this makes the ppl can really contribute in dev this, stay away from it.

LoKi said really clear, if this remains closed, you comunity will loose more than win.

And also Erusman have a good point, surely better explained than me.

Apart from this, happy holidays, and merry xmas to all.

[thevoiddragon]

As a long time developer who participates in open source projects, I'm saddened to see another developer say not to.  Open sourcing, among many other things, allows for patch submitting, which furthers development, bug fixes, etc... 

Plus, I stay away from closed source projects anymore, especially those that said they would OS then pull the plug.

While that is true, i don't think it's good in this case. The NGE SWG community is too small to split up, and considering quite a few players seem to outright hate and want to bring down other servers just because they aren't theirs, all it would do is cause problems. NGE NEEDS a single, centralized, well-maintained server in order to survive.

[Doogla]

You can contribute to the code without having full access to the code. The biggest threat to NGE servers is the population splintering.

What population splintering if there is already a working server of NGE around? You guys think SB is the only working server?  We only want to see if there is really a huge gap betwen what have done on the NGE server vs this SB code. And if really yes then use to update the server and also contribute here if devs are interested on some new content or added features. But well, dont worry we will see in few days when they open the servers.

Another thing is, why i should help all the comunity if the comunity itself remains egoist like what i see in the past with other groups? Im not talking about devs because they said what they want to do about the code, but the comunity? Why i should help to get the server with the last update of SWG ( working partially on the other non SB server and still under dev ) or the new content we are adding like new planets, new bosses...planned new heroics.... if the comunity itself here are plenty of ppl that only want benefit for him? Its funny read here, the ppl think this is the only place you can play a working server...and the world is really big. SB did a really great job and all the SWG ppl support him for what they did, do and for what type of ppl they are. But comunity... comunity only see for his only benefit nothing more. And this makes the ppl can really contribute in dev this, stay away from it.

LoKi said really clear, if this remains closed, you comunity will loose more than win.

And also Erusman have a good point, surely better explained than me.

Apart from this, happy holidays, and merry xmas to all.

 It's interesting that a lot of people are saying that there's a bunch of NGE servers already.  There's one that could be considered working, and that is legends.  But we all know legends has its problems.  If this server lives up to everything that was promised, this will be THE server.  I don't know where you are coming up with all of these other servers, but I guess they are secret.

 If you will join me in reality for a second, getting a working server (especially one without game breaking problems like Legends) isn't easy, despite what "developers that would help if I wasn't so busy" say. If it was, we would have a million servers years ago when the source was leaked.

This is not something that is going to be enjoyed by millions of people. This is a tiny tiny community that doesn't need to be split apart by every autist with a power trip.  You may think it's an ethical thing to do, but you don't understand that this community is pure unadulterated cancer that doesn't know what to do with ethics.  The people  saying don't do it are people who know this community  and have watched other projects go down the same road before.

[thevoiddragon]

You can contribute to the code without having full access to the code. The biggest threat to NGE servers is the population splintering.

What population splintering if there is already a working server of NGE around? You guys think SB is the only working server?  We only want to see if there is really a huge gap betwen what have done on the NGE server vs this SB code. And if really yes then use to update the server and also contribute here if devs are interested on some new content or added features. But well, dont worry we will see in few days when they open the servers.

Another thing is, why i should help all the comunity if the comunity itself remains egoist like what i see in the past with other groups? Im not talking about devs because they said what they want to do about the code, but the comunity? Why i should help to get the server with the last update of SWG ( working partially on the other non SB server and still under dev ) or the new content we are adding like new planets, new bosses...planned new heroics.... if the comunity itself here are plenty of ppl that only want benefit for him? Its funny read here, the ppl think this is the only place you can play a working server...and the world is really big. SB did a really great job and all the SWG ppl support him for what they did, do and for what type of ppl they are. But comunity... comunity only see for his only benefit nothing more. And this makes the ppl can really contribute in dev this, stay away from it.

LoKi said really clear, if this remains closed, you comunity will loose more than win.

And also Erusman have a good point, surely better explained than me.

Apart from this, happy holidays, and merry xmas to all.

What? There is ONE other NGE server, and that is Legends, which despite it's problems is the only place to currently play NGE SWG. If people want to play NGE, then at the moment it's either play there, or don't play at all. Other than that there is ProjectSWG, but that is years away from having anything that properly resembles NGE. The population splintering people keep mentioning is because that is what has happened with the pre-cu EMU, where there are quite a lot of servers that are all trying to do their own thing and compete with everyone else, therefore splitting up the playerbase between either Basilisk, which is the main big EMU server, and lots of other smaller servers which have populations so low they are barely playable. The difference in this situation is that NGE is going to be nowhere near as popular as pre-cu so the playerbase is far more important here, and NGE servers are likely to attract more problems due to it being so difficult to play before now. This server needs to be properly set up before anything is down regarding going open source, it has nothing to do with "Ego". 

[Kriegmacher]

What does it matter?

If you choose to share it, then there will be a dozen or more poorly-developed and poorly-maintained servers out there crapping all over each other on social media.  If this server ends up not being one of them (still crossing my fingers it won't be), then this is were people who are fed up with all this EMU/Leaked Code bullsh*t (the vast majority of players) will make their home anyway, and you'll be glad to be rid of the meatbags who don't want to play here.  Let them rule their own kingdoms with no subjects.

If you choose NOT to share it, then one or more of the sociopaths who thrive on sabotaging these projects from within will worm their way onto staff under an incognito, steal and/or distribute the source code themselves, and taunt this project's staff for the next 20 years over it.  Why?  Because that's what they do, and it's not without precedent.  And you can say "We're different, we're going to be more careful than those other projects" all you want...odds are one or more of them is already on staff, screwing up things within.   That would certainly explain a lot of the concerns some of us have at the moment.

Regardless, there's no point in sharing code that's not even ready to go live, and hasn't been thoroughly put through quality control by the community.  Unless the goal is to just troll everyone else.  Which, more and more, I feel like was the absolute intention of whomever leaked the NGE source code in the first place.  But the devs would certainly know more about that than me.

[DerpDiggler]

Agreed +1000

Open source would be a very bad idea due to the amount of people who would just try to open their own server. Even though they would most likely fail because they would not care about the community, I feel that the dev's here care enough about the community and the game to run it the way that it should be run and not let some snotty nosed neanderthal pick up the code only to dwindle the numbers enough to make an impact on this server which could ultimately result in there not being enough people to actually enjoy this server and let it thrive to its full potential.

[MilkedViking]

going to achieve FASTER and GREATER development results.  More planets, content etc. 

I see this as a problem though. Servers popping up offering "custom content" without a player base. I think custom content should come far down the road, when there is a stable community going.

I mean, who cares about fancy content if the server lacks population? I'm more than happy with the original content for the next few years, as long as I actually have people to play with...

Normally I'm a big fan of open source, but in the case of Stella Bellum I think it's a bad idea. Honestly, I think a lot of people are so tired of all the drama and all the different servers going on, that this might be the last realistic chance of getting a good NGE server going.

[Andarai]

Dont worry MilkedViking, this is going to happen not here n SB, because there is already custom content in development. Korriban,Space system of Korriban, Felucia, Mon cala, new pets added till last update swg did, also new mutations,new heroics, new bosses,etc... on a stable and working src code. And no one see any server poping around. Why? Because you guys think this is a plug and play server and it's not.

This src is really hard to understand to get a SWGEmu like server, plug and play, even when SB release their code we will not see many servers pooping around.

Also a not live server it doesn't mean there is no src code around with a similar stability of the SOE release.... with all working...heroics, space, crafting, mutations, all classes, quests,etc,etc,etc... but guys, if you only see Legends , PSWG or SB because they are live servers, its really not our problem at all.

Dont worry guys, ( comunity ) because we know what dev's think about this , but comunity still think they (well dev's works not comunity ) dont need to release their code because you ( comunity ) then can't play on a full server for the fear of sliptering comunity ( terribly false because there is as i said million times a src code with ALL working and i dont see any server pooping around ) So i think i will not say anything more because i see a fine edge of trying to help vs stupidity of repeating things like an scratched disk. And i put my hands on fire that after this we will see more posts about the fear of splitering comunity.

[Doogla]

Dont worry MilkedViking, this is going to happen not here n SB, because there is already custom content in development. Korriban,Space system of Korriban, Felucia, Mon cala, new pets added till last update swg did, also new mutations,new heroics, new bosses,etc... on a stable and working src code. And no one see any server poping around. Why? Because you guys think this is a plug and play server and it's not.

This src is really hard to understand to get a SWGEmu like server, plug and play, even when SB release their code we will not see many servers pooping around.

Also a not live server it doesn't mean there is no src code around with a similar stability of the SOE release.... with all working...heroics, space, crafting, mutations, all classes, quests,etc,etc,etc... but guys, if you only see Legends , PSWG or SB because they are live servers, its really not our problem at all.

Dont worry guys, ( comunity ) because we know what dev's think about this , but comunity still think they (well dev's works not comunity ) dont need to release their code because you ( comunity ) then can't play on a full server for the fear of sliptering comunity ( terribly false because there is as i said million times a src code with ALL working and i dont see any server pooping around ) So i think i will not say anything more because i see a fine edge of trying to help vs stupidity of repeating things like an scratched disk. And i put my hands on fire that after this we will see more posts about the fear of splitering comunity.

This post really gets the neurons firing.

[cyberwiz]

i think sharing the source code is a good thing, as long as the core team keeps working on their project without getting distracted with "outsiders point of views". If  a 3rd party wants to contribute to core project by say improving security or something he would post about his modification on the forums and then push his code to a branch version of the core project for testing 3rd party code. The testing could be done by tester and latter by the developers core team if the modifications passes some good review and tests. Myself i would like to try to implement the pre NGE professions  while keeping the NGE game mechanics
.

[jadiz]

I came here a few days ago knowing there is a low population. I came from Legends because i don't like the way it's run. I quality population of players is better then quantity. Besides if this server survives the current hardship i have no doubt your population will start to come back again. I played swg in all its forms and even though i liked pre-cu, when cu hit i gave it a chance. I started to like it. NGE happened and i suddenly hated jedi. But over time NGE improved and i came back, started playing again and got back into crafting when they tweaked that too.

So far i have really enjoyed my brief couple of days here, but i would love to see a solid foundation of a friendly community rise from hard times. All the work you guys (devs) have put it would almost seem wasteful. Please reconsider going open source and listen to those few people still here. This community can come back if you give it a chance

regards Jadiz

[Corthreat]

I came here a few days ago knowing there is a low population. I came from Legends because i don't like the way it's run. I quality population of players is better then quantity. Besides if this server survives the current hardship i have no doubt your population will start to come back again.

I doubt it will be more active than it is right now and I've been there for its entirety. People don't seem to care about a frog server, they want to invest their time into a "live" server. Even when that means they have to start over after a year because the server has to be wiped /shrug (see Bloodfin, they are celebrating their 4th annual wipe)


The team doesn't want to operate a live server without being able to provide proper and regular development support - i.e. being able to do hotfixes that are timely (and not 1-12 weeks later).  Since the team size does not permit to do that, they are keeping things as they are (a TC).

[DarthArgus]

Seems most people lean towards releasing being a bad idea, which is where I currently stand because I just can't stand the idea of all the time I sunk (hindsight being as it is, wasted, beyond the skills I honed) fixing things in this awful code going towards causing more trouble, legal or otherwise. Legal is most likely since I hear hints of people running SWG servers pocketing everything over the expenses, at least in the past.

Likewise, I'd love to share it sometime, and time permitting, that will probably still happen in some form or fashion, even if that's just binary releases built by moi.

[warchild]

What is the protection for programming that has been abandoned by the developing company? There must be some protection for People over corporations, we are living and they exist only on paper. Could just bey crazy talking here. Though it's really not, you creators have levels of protection as human beings that can not be taken away unless you decide to deny them for yourself. There is no money to be made on SWG. Also, modifications allow you to claim creator rights. What right does anyone have in taking away what you have created by spending massive time creating. Reworking is creation, the software is defunct and effectively abandoned. You have protection. Adding to that armor is smart, anonymity is part of the process but at a certain point We have to stand for what is right. Just venting but I have a powerful point and an argument that I'll hold off on making at the moment. The main key is to be open and transparent, use a buffer. I can provide that in a legal way. Should you chose to take me up on the offer.

[spaceguy5]

Seems most people lean towards releasing being a bad idea, which is where I currently stand because I just can't stand the idea of all the time I sunk (hindsight being as it is, wasted, beyond the skills I honed) fixing things in this awful code going towards causing more trouble, legal or otherwise. Legal is most likely since I hear hints of people running SWG servers pocketing everything over the expenses, at least in the past.

Likewise, I'd love to share it sometime, and time permitting, that will probably still happen in some form or fashion, even if that's just binary releases built by moi.

Personally, as someone who loves tinkering with code and also who loved playing SWG back in the day (and only in the last few months learned about the leaks and reboots), the possibility of a full release is very exciting to me as SB seems extremely stable in the last few months I've played on it, and the tremendous work put into it shows.

I know I'm not the only one too. One of my old friends even runs his own personal and private test server (based on a release from SWG Masters), where he tinkers with adding new features, even though he knows Legends (his primary server) won't accept his content.

Personally I've even thought about buying hosting to host a small server, but I don't want to commit because of the massive amount of bugs in the currently available leaks, and I definitely don't have the time to fix all of them myself to get it to a playable state.

In my opinion, it would be a huge loss if SB's work wasn't either fully released, or in some other way shared with the world.

[Cekis]

Seems most people lean towards releasing being a bad idea, which is where I currently stand because I just can't stand the idea of all the time I sunk (hindsight being as it is, wasted, beyond the skills I honed) fixing things in this awful code going towards causing more trouble, legal or otherwise. Legal is most likely since I hear hints of people running SWG servers pocketing everything over the expenses, at least in the past.

Likewise, I'd love to share it sometime, and time permitting, that will probably still happen in some form or fashion, even if that's just binary releases built by moi.

At the time we were running the server and development and focusing on a final product, yes, people generally thought releasing would have been a bad idea... HOWEVER, we're past that now... and you haven't touched the code in months... I haven't touched the code in months... we have no plans on going live, ever... so, yes, I agree with spaceguy... if we don't release it publicly it's LOST... that was a TON of work I put in and you put in and the others put in that would then suddenly be GONE... face it... you have no interest in keeping the idea of a live server going.  It's time to let go and share that work so others can pick up where we left off.

[JekVanno]

Hey.  I haven't been around for a while but thought I'd drop in to see how things were.  Previously, I argued to NOT release the source code, but that was when there was a prospect for playing on a live server with a population in the foreseeable future.  There's no doubt that the SB team has expertly tuned and improved the leaked source code like no other team, but it's a game meant to be played.  It's corny, but SWG is an MMO like they don't make anymore.  It's a living, breathing ecosystem meant to be populated.  It doesn't really come alive with less than several hundred regular players participating in the stupid player economy that just irritates all the players who prefer the frog.  Polishing the SWG code to a high luster only to put it on a shelf is a damn shame. 

It's not up to me to tell people what to do with their work, and if their was a plan to run a perpetual open server that could handle thousands of logins, I'd cheer for keeping it close, as I did before.  Who wouldn't support the fruits of labor?  But if not, support what's left of the community before it becomes irrelevant.  In five years it's likely to be pointless, maybe sooner.  Open source the code and let people revel in the work and the game.

[Cekis]

Hey.  I haven't been around for a while but thought I'd drop in to see how things were.  Previously, I argued to NOT release the source code, but that was when there was a prospect for playing on a live server with a population in the foreseeable future.  There's no doubt that the SB team has expertly tuned and improved the leaked source code like no other team, but it's a game meant to be played.  It's corny, but SWG is an MMO like they don't make anymore.  It's a living, breathing ecosystem meant to be populated.  It doesn't really come alive with less than several hundred regular players participating in the stupid player economy that just irritates all the players who prefer the frog.  Polishing the SWG code to a high luster only to put it on a shelf is a damn shame. 

It's not up to me to tell people what to do with their work, and if their was a plan to run a perpetual open server that could handle thousands of logins, I'd cheer for keeping it close, as I did before.  Who wouldn't support the fruits of labor?  But if not, support what's left of the community before it becomes irrelevant.  In five years it's likely to be pointless, maybe sooner.  Open source the code and let people revel in the work and the game.

It was released last week... at least in part:
https://bitbucket.org/stellabellumswg/dsrc/overview

[JekVanno]

Opinion so hard, it reverberated the space-time continuum and traveled back in time..? I saw the dates above and decided it wasn't so long ago.  Can't wait to see what becomes of it.  Cheers.