Poll

Which story arc would you want to see most used for RP when Stella Bellum goes Live?

Canon (Films + TCW + Rebels + Post-2012 Novels)
12 (24%)
Legends (All Star Wars lore Pre-2012)
22 (44%)
Doesn't matter to me!
16 (32%)

Total Members Voted: 50

Author Topic: Canon or Legends?  (Read 1419 times)

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Offline verzio

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Canon or Legends?
« on: 07-01-17, 02:04:16 »
Hey everyone,

As an adamant roleplayer, I'm curious to know what people's thoughts are on this hot subject. A lot has changed since the live servers went down. Much of the content in SWG may not even exist according to Disney!
So as role players in this lore-fuelled galaxy, what do you think? Do you like that Disney are polishing things up a bit? Do you prefer the old ways? Does it not bother you either way? Let me know and tell me why!
Thanks
Verzio

Offline rhen

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Re: Canon or Legends?
« Reply #1 on: 07-01-17, 02:18:49 »
In the discord conversations it seems the general consensus is canon takes precedence. From there, legends can fill in the blanks from what is left or has not been touched on in the current canon.

IG Content > Canon > Legends > Fandon
« Last Edit: 07-01-17, 04:18:14 by rhen »

Offline Lordofgravy

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Re: Canon or Legends?
« Reply #2 on: 07-01-17, 03:10:34 »
So far I am pleased with what Disney is doing...but I like what Dark Horse did better.

http://www.darkhorse.com/Search/Browse/%22star+wars%22/PpwNwkt8

Offline OneWithTheForks

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Re: Canon or Legends?
« Reply #3 on: 07-01-17, 03:24:58 »
I lean slightly towards Legends. I grew up with it, I know it better, its sandbox has more sand to play with at the moment because it's been around much longer, and there are characters, events, and storylines that I just prefer to Canon (Yub yub, Commander).

That said, there are a lot of truly silly and convoluted things in Legends, and a few things in Canon that I prefer to their Legends counterpart. Like there being one definitive version of how the Alliance got the Death Star plans instead of everyone and their pet monkey-lizard stealing all the thumb drives labeled "Death Star Plans" that the Empire had lying around.

So I guess I'm more "Pick-and-choose whatever I feel like I want canon to be for the day." :P Really, though, I could roll with either if I had to.
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Offline Aowin

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Re: Canon or Legends?
« Reply #4 on: 07-01-17, 03:47:09 »
Honestly, it's a mixed bag. While I liked certain aspects of Legends (Knights of the Old Republic Era), I also despise other aspects of Legends (Legacy of the Force Era).

By and large, I would have been content had Disney just retconned everything after RotJ and left everything before the films alone. I felt the lore before the films was largely superior and overall more consistent and well-written. A lot of the lore post-RotJ is bizarre, incoherent, and downright cringe-worthy.

Given that SWG takes place between Episode 4 and Episode 5, not much with regard to major lore has changed since the films are canon. Only lesser lore that was tacked on (Mara Jade being in DWB) is unequivocally non-canon.

Folks are free to roleplay what they want. I certainly will never let Disney's bone-headed decisions ever limit my ability to roleplay a character in the Star Wars Universe. I come up with my own stories anyway, with the setting of the Galactic Empire and the Rebel Alliance as a backdrop.


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Offline ryan404000

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Re: Canon or Legends?
« Reply #5 on: 07-01-17, 05:51:00 »
So far I am pleased with what Disney is doing...but I like what Dark Horse did better.

http://www.darkhorse.com/Search/Browse/%22star+wars%22/PpwNwkt8

Some of the newer Dark Horse comics are canon though, check the uhh "Canon" page on wookieepedia iirc and it'll say which ones are.

I know a lot of people are disagreeing with me, but I've been pushing Ingame>Canon>Legends>Fanon route since that makes the most sense. You use what's in game and then canon to fill any holes in it, and from there legends to fill those holes. Which can easily lead to things like, idk the dark troopers and kyle katarn destroying the arc hammer because what are the dark troopers in canon? Nothing, so you'd go to legends and bam.

I think the poll should have that option of Ingame>Canon>Legends>Fanon but I'll be posting my vote for canon and adding on here that I will use Legends to fill any gaps in canon.

Offline sfinna

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Re: Canon or Legends?
« Reply #6 on: 07-01-17, 06:22:05 »
Legends. Legends legends legends legends Legends.

Legends? Legends!

Offline sunsailor

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Re: Canon or Legends?
« Reply #7 on: 07-01-17, 06:23:24 »
In the discord conversations it seems the general consensus is canon takes precedence. From there, legends can fill in the blanks from what is left or has not been touched on in the current canon.

IG Content > Canon > Legends > Fandon

That wasn't the consensus. It was very much split down the middle.

Offline OneWithTheForks

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Re: Canon or Legends?
« Reply #8 on: 07-01-17, 06:55:23 »
I know a lot of people are disagreeing with me, but I've been pushing Ingame>Canon>Legends>Fanon route since that makes the most sense. You use what's in game and then canon to fill any holes in it, and from there legends to fill those holes. Which can easily lead to things like, idk the dark troopers and kyle katarn destroying the arc hammer because what are the dark troopers in canon? Nothing, so you'd go to legends and bam.

I'd be cool with that. Obviously, people can roleplay whatever they want, but I wouldn't mind using that as my own personal starting point or guideline.

I'm curious, though. Is there even anything currently in Canon that would majorly contradict what’s in the game? I just ask because I’m not really all that familiar with the Canon between Episodes IV and V. It doesn’t seem like they’ve really touched that area too much yet. It seems like the biggest changes are post-Endor—which is pretty much a complete re-write—and the period between III and IV. Only the latter of which could potentially have any bearing in-game.
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Offline Aowin

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Re: Canon or Legends?
« Reply #9 on: 07-01-17, 07:01:28 »
I'd be cool with that. Obviously, people can roleplay whatever they want, but I wouldn't mind using that as my own personal starting point or guideline.

I'm curious, though. Is there even anything currently in Canon that would majorly contradict what’s in the game? I just ask because I’m not really all that familiar with the Canon between Episodes IV and V. It doesn’t seem like they’ve really touched that area too much yet. It seems like the biggest changes are post-Endor—which is pretty much a complete re-write—and the period between III and IV. Only the latter of which could potentially have any bearing in-game.
Canon in SWG is largely the same. The only parts of canon that became Legends were largely the expanded universe before the films and the expanded universe after the films. As you pointed out, the period of twenty years between Episode III and Episode IV is being rewritten by Disney. However, Disney hasn't done anything drastic that would somehow impact and change the original trilogy.

In fact, the game holds up surprisingly well in that much of it is still canon and doesn't contradict the new canon. SWTOR, on the other hand, is completely non-canon after the retcon of the EU as it takes place entirely in the Knights of the Old Republic Era. SWG doesn't have that issue, however.


All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

First Daggerfall Emperor of Cyrodiil on Bloodthorn Campaign in ESO (2014):
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Offline sunsailor

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Re: Canon or Legends?
« Reply #10 on: 07-01-17, 07:05:35 »
I'd be cool with that. Obviously, people can roleplay whatever they want, but I wouldn't mind using that as my own personal starting point or guideline.

I'm curious, though. Is there even anything currently in Canon that would majorly contradict what’s in the game? I just ask because I’m not really all that familiar with the Canon between Episodes IV and V. It doesn’t seem like they’ve really touched that area too much yet. It seems like the biggest changes are post-Endor—which is pretty much a complete re-write—and the period between III and IV. Only the latter of which could potentially have any bearing in-game.
Canon in SWG is largely the same. The only parts of canon that became Legends were largely the expanded universe before the films and the expanded universe after the films. As you pointed out, the period of twenty years between Episode III and Episode IV is being rewritten by Disney. However, Disney hasn't done anything drastic that would somehow impact and change the original trilogy.

In fact, the game holds up surprisingly well in that much of it is still canon and doesn't contradict the new canon. SWTOR, on the other hand, is completely non-canon after the retcon of the EU as it takes place entirely in the Knights of the Old Republic Era. SWG doesn't have that issue, however.

It does in more than a few places like we touched on in the discussion; Thrawn, the Dark Troopers, Yavin 4, Dantooine, Mustafar etc.

Offline Aowin

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Re: Canon or Legends?
« Reply #11 on: 07-01-17, 07:27:38 »
It does in more than a few places like we touched on in the discussion; Thrawn, the Dark Troopers, Yavin 4, Dantooine, Mustafar etc.
While I believe you, and certainly Dark Troopers are no longer canon (although Thrawn is), Yavin IV, Dantooine, and Mustafar are too broad and vague. Those planets are canon and all of them are either shown or mentioned in the films.

Now, Exar Kun and Naga Sadow are no longer canon (unless either appeared on the Clone Wars or Rebels), so certain aspects of Yavin IV would be changed since it's largely considered a dominion of the Dark Side. The Jedi Temple Ruins on Dantooine are probably non-canon, but the Rebel base is canon and even referenced in Episode IV. All of the HK-47 content on Mustafar is non-canon as it pertains to The Old Republic Era, but everything else (outside of the instances) should still be canon. I also mentioned Mara Jade's presence in the Death Watch Bunker on Endor is clearly non-canon.

I don't see any of that really being detrimental or undermining the game as much of it is optional, with the Mustafar content perhaps being the exception. By and large, these are very harsh critiques on aspects that are incredibly minuscule to the actual game.


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Offline ryan404000

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Re: Canon or Legends?
« Reply #12 on: 07-01-17, 14:23:40 »
The problem is that we have people grasping at points that really don't support them. Your character isn't going to meet Thrawn, or see a lot about Dark Troopers. They may see a Dark Trooper, but hey that's all, you're not going to know where they're created or what's going on with them. There's also the fact that this poll is objectively bad because it's not getting what the main option I was pushing for. This makes it seem like people in the community are saying "Let's throw legends out the window" but we're not, people who were on my side of the discussion last night were saying that we should look at ingame stuff first, then new canon, then legends, then fanon, because ingame is what we will see in front of us. Following by using new canon because new canon is the canon and so on and so forth.

Another issue is that people are, seemingly, only against this option because it's "disney canon" when Disney doesn't even make the canon, Lucasfilms and the Lucasfilms storygroup decide what is canon. This shouldn't be a discussion where people bring there feelings about Disney, the canon wipe, etc, into it. This is a discussion where we should be looking at it from the point of view of Roleplayers, and because we are roleplayers we should be using new canon as our first information source after looking at ingame. Why you may ask? Because it's canon. It is what's constantly being updated and expanded and is being made into a smoother timeline, is it small right now? Yeah it is, but that's fine because usually you may not get info from new canon so when you have no info from new canon, you should then look at Legends to fill those gaps. I'm not saying to throw away Legends, I'm arguing that we should be prioritizing the New Canon over Legends because it is what's canon, and in my 9 years of roleplay across over a dozen games I will have and always will follow canon as much as I can.

I think I'm going to keep this as my last post on the matter because we beat that dead horse a lot last night on Discord.

Offline sunsailor

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Re: Canon or Legends?
« Reply #13 on: 07-01-17, 15:55:45 »
The problem Ryan is you're seemingly oblivious to how destructive the New Canon is Legends content like the game that we play. This is a Legends game without question, and your solution to make "everything canon in the sequence of game > nc > legends > fanon" already confuses the people who agree with you as to how it works.

Attributing our points as grasping at straws is belittling the arguments of a large number of people who do not agree with you. There are severe gaps in your logic caused by the New Canon that do not need to exist at all if its simply not included whatsoever.

A lot of us are getting tired of being openly insulted over this difference opinion with you. The Dark Troopers, the Battle of Restuss, the Jedi Temples on Mustafar, the Jedi Temple on Dantooine, the Palace of Woolamander, the Temple of Exar Kuun, Captain Thrawn, Mara Jade, HK-47, and Deth Rendar's existances in the game present major problems for your lore system, especially when we have RP guilds forming around this content that New Canon writes out of
Existance completely (purposefully) and replaces with vaguery or nothing at all.

You continue to attribute me with hating the new lore, which I don't, you attributed me with being selfish over the Legends canon because it makes my SWTOR character able to exist -- which I don't give two flying fucks about in this game.

Might I remind you, the Legends camp is the side that's not been throwing insults throughout this discussion. Let that sink in before you decide to undermine our concerns again.
« Last Edit: 07-01-17, 15:57:43 by sunsailor »

Offline kap

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Re: Canon or Legends?
« Reply #14 on: 07-01-17, 17:05:37 »
I also like the idea of SWG > New Canon > Legends if just so we have the opportunity to include things like Scarif and potentially future films into what we do in SWG RP. However, I think a lot of us come from playing games like SWTOR, which is one game technically out of New Canon that we would like to imagine is still part of things. After all, we've created characters in the Old Republic and some of us have studied up on Old Republic lore for the better part of 4 years now (even if it is hardly relevant in 0-3ABY). On top of that, I know some RPers will be playing their characters from live, and I imagine that many of these characters have had story arcs including now-Legend story figures or powers.

Ultimately I believe that every single roleplayer here wants to use at least some amount of Legends in their roleplay. I don't believe that any roleplayer will be ignoring people that incorporate common Legends themes, and if they do, I don't believe that they will be successful in working with other people. After all, a lot of RP is focused on sacrificing bits of an idea so that others can collaborate with you. We are also playing a Legends MMORPG.

In the end, I think being courteous to one another will go a LONG way when it comes to canon vs legends. I remember being extremely young when I started playing SWG, having no idea about any lore, and being ignored for not understanding a lot of basic ideas. I wasn't the type to argue, I simply would not know something and would meet the block list when it was made clear IC. Since then, I've tried to explain things to people in /tells and, at the very least, reach a middle ground when there's discrepancies between my vision and someone else's. Not only are we a small community that doesn't want to fracture, it's just plain rude to ignore people who have a different concept of what is right and what is wrong in such a complex setting. If it were easy, we wouldn't even have a thread like this up.

tl;dr: If you don't like acknowledging battles, people, etc. from Rogue One or new-canon media, have your character not recognize it and maybe send a tell to the other person. If you don't like acknowledging Legends content, have your character be ignorant of the various PoIs across all planets. If you cannot do either of these, there's likely other ways to compromise or work around the problem.

But to reiterate, I really would like to acknowledge the battle of Scarif on a Rebel character. At the same time, I would like to move around Yavin without fear of bumping heads with someone on if a temple is really there. I really hope that most people are in the same boat and that we're all trying to have fun rather than make the setting into a serious chore.

edit:
I've not seen every episode of Rebels, nor have I read any of the new-canon books. I can't imagine that every other RPer has, either. It would make sense to acknowledge the core of lore over these things and I think it comes down to expectations and reasoning with people rather than "canon or legends?"
« Last Edit: 07-01-17, 17:10:47 by kap »

Offline OneWithTheForks

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Re: Canon or Legends?
« Reply #15 on: 07-01-17, 17:53:44 »
I didn't know there's already been a discussion ad nauseam on this. Never mind my input then. I don't want to further confuse and already confusing topic. :)

Still, this is the main reason why I hate that they rebooted the canon, even though there are things in both that I like and dislike. Having two separate timelines is way too confusing. Everyone has a different approach to it, which just makes for more friction among the fanbase. It's why I could never get into comic book universes.
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Offline drannon

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Re: Canon or Legends?
« Reply #16 on: 07-01-17, 20:40:25 »
Roleplay what you want how you want.  Both sides are being too adamant and demanding on how lore should be implemented and enforced on this server, and that's the makings of a hostile roleplay environment for everyone, especially new and returning SWG players who will certainly be turned off when they're shunned and corrected OOCly by someone who threw a tantrum and had to have their lore their way.  I've seen this happen a thousand times across many games and it's a bit disheartening that there's already a division over this before the server has even gone Live.

Wanna pretend Rogue One was a thing despite SWG's entire lifespan beginning and ending before the movie was even a concept?  That's fine.  Wanna act like Bootleg Han Solo and his Millenium Falcon clone saved the galaxy better than the original trilogy characters ever could?  That's great too.  Keep that to yourselves and in your respective groups and everyone will get along fine.  There's way too many players involved in this to expect them all to come together under a single standard.

Case in point:  I despise a lot of Empire Era EU content.  To my very core.  It's a heap of outlandish, asinine writing where authors add in their own super special snowflake to undermine the original characters we all grew up with and love.  However, if I'm sitting in a dark corner of Mos Eisley cantina and someone approaches my character ICly with "Hey!  I was just hanging with my boy, Force Ghost Exar Kun, and we caught a ride with my other boy Dash on his Outrider, which is totally better than the Millenium Falcon in every way!"  I'm not gonna throw a fit OOCly, ignore them or threaten to blacklist them or any of that craziness.  I'll simply reply ICly "That's great!  Hope you had fun!" and go back to drinking my blue milk in peace.

These lore conflicts didn't just come about with Rogue One.  They've been around since SWG RP was a thing.  The game has always been a smashed mess in concerns with continuity.  Only difference now is we have a little more content to scratch our heads to.
« Last Edit: 07-01-17, 20:59:33 by drannon »
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Offline kap

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Re: Canon or Legends?
« Reply #17 on: 07-01-17, 22:51:23 »
These lore conflicts didn't just come about with Rogue One.  They've been around since SWG RP was a thing.  The game has always been a smashed mess in concerns with continuity.  Only difference now is we have a little more content to scratch our heads to.

This is about how I see it, too. There's always been too much lore for any one person to wrap their head around, let alone an entire community. As long as we can reach a certain level of respect for one another and maintain the ability to speak on level terms about how to compromise and deal with things, it's great; people will keep on going, and most everyone will be happy.

Offline rhen

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Re: Canon or Legends?
« Reply #18 on: 07-01-17, 23:53:34 »
In the discord conversations it seems the general consensus is canon takes precedence. From there, legends can fill in the blanks from what is left or has not been touched on in the current canon.

IG Content > Canon > Legends > Fandon

That wasn't the consensus. It was very much split down the middle.

I do take that back. That was the general consensus made a few days ago prior to the conversation in the discord which happened after I made this post.

Offline drannon

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Re: Canon or Legends?
« Reply #19 on: 07-01-17, 23:55:09 »
These lore conflicts didn't just come about with Rogue One.  They've been around since SWG RP was a thing.  The game has always been a smashed mess in concerns with continuity.  Only difference now is we have a little more content to scratch our heads to.

This is about how I see it, too. There's always been too much lore for any one person to wrap their head around, let alone an entire community. As long as we can reach a certain level of respect for one another and maintain the ability to speak on level terms about how to compromise and deal with things, it's great; people will keep on going, and most everyone will be happy.
It's not so much the amount of lore, although you are certainly correct, but the fact that since the beginning SWG's in-game lore has been very inconsistent.

Your second point is the kicker: respect.  But you will always have hostile people in a roleplay community who must have their way.  And they influence others to do the same.  It's unfortunate but a reality.

I've been a member of what some may call a toxic server in WoW for almost a decade.  It has its moments but I still love it and feel a large portion of that community are great people.  It's just the loud, obnoxious minority who gets the most attention, because they are loud and obnoxious.  But I never let the BS get to me in that game and surround myself with the same types of people.  You wanna roleplay a vampire or Vrykul, good for you!

Have fun but don't force it on other players.  Which is what these hostile people try to do, imposing their way on others in almost a cyber bully fashion.  Acknowledge my character as the bishop/lord/noble/whatever and swear fealty or I will ignore you and tell my guild and friends to do the same.  GTFOH.  As long as your roleplay and the lore you choose to abide by doesn't interfere with others I personally don't care what you do.

I certainly would hate to see this community go down that same road.
« Last Edit: 08-01-17, 00:05:26 by drannon »
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